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+--- Thread: Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise (/showthread.php?tid=955)
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - BillyH - 03-02-2022
I mostly bowed out of The X Factor at the precise point that it went from being popular to being utterly stratospheric (early on in 2009) but it felt like for the next couple of years I still *had* to know at least who was out/still in each week as the popularity it had at the turn of the 2010s can’t be stressed enough. Favourite memory from the peak is one of the younger contestants being eliminated, being interviewed by Dermot and saying something like “Well, I’m surprised at this because the votes leaked on Twitter earlier and I wasn’t bottom at all…” only for Dermot to hastily mutter something about that being unverified and move on. At the time it briefly felt like the whole show was about to be unmasked as a fix, but looking back the “leaked votes” may well have been some bored teen making things up on social media and the contestant happening to read it.
Overall many of the successful contestants all seemed to have record deals/albums/TV appearances long before their first appearance on the programme, and some were put forward by their agencies to essentially introduce them to the general public in a way that misleadingly suggested they were the ordinary boy/girl next door who just happened to show up for an audition. My last memory of watching it though was a rather clever reversal of the standard cliches where you got a long build up, sob story etc with one of the contestants, he goes on stage and sings…and the judges say he’s a bit average and not great and he doesn’t get through to the next round, which genuinely seemed a bit stunning at the time and silenced the “you can tell who’ll get through and who won’t!” crowd. Can’t imagine it being much later than about 2012 as after that I really moved away from anything to do with it, shortly before everyone else did too.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - James2001 - 03-02-2022
And then you had people who turned up the auditions who clearly thought getting through was a formality and a guaranteed route to fame because that's the way it gets presented on TV, then were clearly very distressed when they were turned down.
And of course most people who turn up the auditions never even get put in front of the main judges, which also seemed to suprise a lot of people who went to audition who thought they'd be plunked straight in front of Simon Cowell and Sharon Osbourne.
The impression really was given that these shows were an easy route to stardom when the reality was anything but. As has been pointed out many of the contestants already had record deals and agents and were likely on their way to a successful career already, they weren't just normal people who got lucky (same for a lot of reality shows being full of people who were already in the industry one way or another- I remember on the infamous "Space Cadets", one of the contestants was an actor who'd appeared on an advert for example).
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Score - 03-02-2022
Steve Williams post_id=66780 time= user_id=1326 Wrote:As I've said before, by the end of The X Factor when it was falling apart I had no idea why Dermot was still there, because I didn't think it was doing him any favours, as he had to do so much fire-fighting with the endless changes of the rules and doing endless pieces looking seriously into the camera and saying someone else had pulled out "due to reasons beyond our control", and the enormous egos of all the judges. I know he was getting a load of money for it, but it was doing nothing for his reputation.
Yeah Kate Thornton really struggled and looking back I'm surprised she lasted 3 series. Whilst Dermot took a little while to get into it he was far, far better and to his credit did a very good job of holding an absolute beast of a show together incredibly well. Actually whilst the show itself started creaking when Cowell left and Gary Barlow came in, it was a time when Dermot really seemed to be in his element and making full control of the show look easy. Those at the top of the show only seemed to full appreciate that when they replaced him with Caroline & Olly who just didn't work at all, the live shows that year were so shambolic. Don't think that was entirely the hosts' fault either, by that point the show itself had become quite messy, but Dermot was used to handling the mess and making it look easy, it would have been an extremely tough gig for whoever they brought in. Even with all the rule changes in the final couple of years I don't think it ever got quite as shambolic on air as the year Dermot wasn't there.
I expect the reason he was there until the end was that after they brought him back to replace Caroline & Olly, he signed a 4 year contract, so was tied to doing the show until the end of 2019. Of course at the time he signed that contract the show was still quite big and I don't think anyone could have foreseen quite how bad things would get. His contract ended at the same time as the show did, I do wonder if he'd have stayed on if the show had continued for another year as they initially said it would.
Steve Williams post_id=66780 time= user_id=1326 Wrote:As you say, initially the figures for X Factor were disappointing and it seemed that they and Strictly were cancelling themselves out, I remember Brucie saying how tickled he was they were neck and neck with a show that got a hundred times the amount of column inches. Of course, this was the era when, because the results shows were on the same night, they would both start at around 5.30 which seems unthinkable now.
X Factor really exploded when Strictly stupidly abandoned the Sunday results show in 2009, which had been doing so well for them, and allowed X Factor to nip in and benefit hugely.
* Of course, the first episode of series two went out opposite Fame Academy, which was a huge battle at the time, and it turned out to be the hottest day in British history so the two most-hyped programmes of the year ended up going out when virtually nobody was indoors.
Yes, the first series of X Factor never seemed to pull particularly far past 7 million, which at the time was considered good but not exceptional, and compared to Pop Idol which had got to 9/10 million for its later weeks and well into double figures for the final was seen as a disappointment. The second X Factor did hit those levels and from 2005-07 it seemed to average around the same numbers as Pop Idol 2, and was in a pretty regular tussle with Strictly. 2008 was the year Cheryl Cole came in and X Factor just seemed to explode. There were a few possible reasons why, the judging change, some format and tone changes that were made and the rise of Britain's Got Talent having a bit of a halo effect on Cowell's other show were all said to be playing a part. It convincingly beat Strictly for the first time which of course caused Strictly to temporarily lose its marbles the following year with the Arlene/Alesha fiasco, the extended (and later) Saturday show and various other issues. Brucie of course memorably turned up at the press launch and dished out homemade ratings handouts to the assembled journalists. Strictly's blip was short lived though. They had a really strong 2010 (still the biggest one ever?) which out them in a strong position to capitalise and pull ahead when X Factor started to go on the turn.
The whole Pop Idol/Fame Academy clash was bizarre because it must have been blindingly obvious that it was a battle Fame Academy stood no chance of winning. They had a series and a half's worth of evidence by the time of the clash that it wasn't going to work out.
Steve Williams post_id=66782 time= user_id=1326 Wrote:This is the thing, isn't it - Cowell made a big thing of being able to go to his audience and saying "look, we've heard what you're saying and we're going to go back to basics", but the number of times they did that means that by the end of it you lose all credibility, and illustrates that you're just flinging everything at the wall to see if anything sticks.
This was where all the boasting they used to do about the ratings came back to bite them, when they used to spend so much time bigging up how many people were watching and of course Louis Walsh repeatedly taunting the opposition. All very well when you're winning, but that means when the figures start falling you then can't say "well, the audiences aren't what they were but the show is better than ever", because you'd spent the last few years saying ratings were the be-all and end-all.
The going back to basics thing sort of worked the first time they did it. The problem with the last decade of X Factor was that whenever they got into some kind of rhythm, they then seemed to lose confidence and rip it all up again. As I said above there's no doubt that losing Cowell/Cole hurt it, and Gary Barlow and especially Tulisa never really worked, but actually towards the end of the Barlow era it felt like the show had found its footing again. The ratings were stable (yes, down on the peak, but they'd stopped falling) and the show felt like it had found a rhythm again. Cowell returning needn't have changed that if he'd just subbed himself in for Barlow but they insisted on bringing Cheryl back as well and making other tweaks, then when the numbers didn't shoot up again (as they inevitably were not going to) they ripped the whole thing up and made massive format changes, lost Louis & Dermot etc. That didn't work so they went back to basics, brought everyone back (thus ending up with the panel they'd have had if Cowell had just replaced Barlow and left everything else the same in the first place). That did alright for a while but then more format changes followed by judging changes followed and it was just a vicious cycle of chasing peaks that they were never going to return to, and in doing so they just killed the whole thing.
X Factor was never going to return to the highs it hit in 2010 because once people stop watching a show they rarely return. Plus the highs it reached were so dizzying and unsustainable it was never going to last. They only realised far too late in the day that the trick was just to keep the show steady at a good level. Which like you say was made far more difficult by the amount of boasting they did at the peak. For most of the 2010s X Factor wasn't actually doing that badly. Yes it was declining, but so were most things, but the numbers were still good and the pace of decline wasn't horrendous. But it seemed to live in the shadow of its peak and every time it showed signs of emerging from it, they ruined it by changing things around.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Yellow - 03-02-2022
johnnyboy post_id=66774 time= user_id=925 Wrote:Brekkie post_id=66771 time= user_id=976 Wrote:The first series set especially was a masterpiece.
Agreed. The face off between Simon and Will Young set the tone of the series.
The set at that special moment including a judges' desk that was a regular off-the-shelf one straight from IKEA! How quickly things change...
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - WhisperOfCinnamon - 03-02-2022
Brekkie post_id=66771 time= user_id=976 Wrote:The first series set especially was a masterpiece.
The set design was incredible, and really ushered in the age of complex sets for talent competitions (Popstars: The Rivals tried something similar but didn't get it quite right IMO).
The designer of the set Andy Walmsley has some great info and photos on his website, including my personal favourite - a wee model of the stage!
![[Image: 1643908135_1208178598.jpg]](https://up.metropol247.co.uk/022022/1643908135_1208178598.jpg)
http://www.andywalmsley.com/show.php?project_id=94
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - TVNerd - 03-02-2022
I was an X Factor fan and stuck with it until the end, but there were some things I found odd in the later days, in particular, the year they did “live Judge’s Houses” which was just Olly and Caroline linking to VT’s with a live reveal of the results at the end, which was a bit pointless, unless it was to prevent spoilers?
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Brekkie - 03-02-2022
WhisperOfCinnamon post_id=66810 time= user_id=1143 Wrote:Thanks - was just about to Google that and the designer then went over to work on American Idol and made a career over there. I take it unlike the US Pop Idol never had a permanent live band, though I think they did a Big Band week.Brekkie post_id=66771 time= user_id=976 Wrote:The first series set especially was a masterpiece.
The set design was incredible, and really ushered in the age of complex sets for talent competitions (Popstars: The Rivals tried something similar but didn't get it quite right IMO).
The designer of the set Andy Walmsley has some great info and photos on his website, including my personal favourite - a wee model of the stage!
http://www.andywalmsley.com/show.php?project_id=94
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - XIII - 03-02-2022
James2001 post_id=66795 time= user_id=956 Wrote:And then you had people who turned up the auditions who clearly thought getting through was a formality and a guaranteed route to fame because that's the way it gets presented on TV, then were clearly very distressed when they were turned down.
And of course most people who turn up the auditions never even get put in front of the main judges, which also seemed to suprise a lot of people who went to audition who thought they'd be plunked straight in front of Simon Cowell and Sharon Osbourne.
The impression really was given that these shows were an easy route to stardom when the reality was anything but. As has been pointed out many of the contestants already had record deals and agents and were likely on their way to a successful career already, they weren't just normal people who got lucky (same for a lot of reality shows being full of people who were already in the industry one way or another- I remember on the infamous "Space Cadets", one of the contestants was an actor who'd appeared on an advert for example).
I'm not surprised that shows like Pop Idol have producers sift through people before they decide who goes in front of the judges, it'd be a very dull and long process to watch someone who can sing but just shrugs when they get turned down, they are making a TV programme and I imagine it's the same for casting other types of TV shows although The Apprentice this year has people who have appeared on TV before so I wonder if that helps or hinders your application.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Brekkie - 03-02-2022
Would be interesting to know how many auditioned for Idol and Popstars compared to The X Factor it's peak.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - XIII - 03-02-2022
I honestly think it'd be worth making a thread or least a discussion about the TV casting process, not just the talent shows but any TV shows that involves the public.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Blubatt - 03-02-2022
I was a little boy when Pop Idol was on, and in retrospect, it launched quite a lot of careers for a lot of people. We obviously got Will Young out of it, Simon Cowell got widespread exposure to the British public, Ant and Dec (arguably) became the big stars of ITV when they were hosting Pop Idol (I know SMTV was their breakout, but Pop Idol was their successful jump to prime time), and the format of live talent shows that dominated the noughties.
I also feel like Pop Idol is more fondly remembered than X Factor or the many derivatives and evolution of the format because it seemed less produced and fake. Will Young standing up to Simon Cowell was real, and wasn't put on for cameras. Nowadays, the audition section of a show is too over produced and is more about telling stories than being about the people.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Digipal - 03-02-2022
I remember through series one and perhaps series two of Pop Idol that you couldn't get ITV2 on SKY. This had all the behind the scenes stuff. Was it Ondigital or Onedigital or something like that that ITV2 was originally on?
My friend used to manually tape the ITV2 bits for me and bring them round and we'd watch them LOL
Anyway, to be honest, I was always a secret Fame Academy series one lover. The behind the scenes bits when Carrie Grant ripped into the singers after the first transmission and when Mariah Carey arrived at the Fame Academy with sunglasses, indoor at night, with a full gang of support people in tow was pure TV Gold
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - VMPhil - 03-02-2022
Digipal post_id=66839 time= user_id=1678 Wrote:I remember through series one and perhaps series two of Pop Idol that you couldn't get ITV2 on SKY. This had all the behind the scenes stuff. Was it Ondigital or Onedigital or something like that that ITV2 was originally on?ITV2 launched on Sky Digital in November 2001 if I recall correctly? So there would have been a couple of months when Pop Idol Extra was exclusive to ITV Digital, renamed that year from ONdigital, and digital cable.
My friend used to manually tape the ITV2 bits for me and bring them round and we'd watch them LOL
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - Steve Williams - 03-02-2022
Brekkie post_id=66787 time= user_id=976 Wrote:The weak point though was the judges - they were absolutely carried by Cowell and I think part of the reason ITV were happy to go with the clean slate The X Factor provided. And as Louis Walsh would say Pete Waterman has never really had the "likeability" factor, something Cowell did manage in his role of supposedly being the one we were supposed to hate.
I wouldn't say that, I thought it was a nice mix of judges on Pop Idol. I do remember that before it started, Sir Pete was promoted as being the tough one, certainly he was the most famous at the time. Even Neil Fox, not that he's a very good name to drop these days, had his place.
Score post_id=66799 time= user_id=1126 Wrote:The whole Pop Idol/Fame Academy clash was bizarre because it must have been blindingly obvious that it was a battle Fame Academy stood no chance of winning. They had a series and a half's worth of evidence by the time of the clash that it wasn't going to work out.
I doggedly stuck with Fame Academy II right to the end, even though there were a million things wrong with it, because I did actually really like the first series, it seemed like it was genuinely doing something different. The second series was just so blatantly Son of Pop Idol, though, it was ridiculous, and as you say it was always going to come in second place.
People slagged off the Beeb for spending money on The Voice and scheduling it aggressively, but for all that, it was just an hour on Saturday nights, whereas Fame Academy was a beast in the schedules - in the first series you had the live show on Fridays, plus half-hour shows on Tuesdays and Thursdays, plus a late night one in case any of them shagged on camera, plus extra programmes on BBC3 and CBBC. You had less in series two but you had it cynically chashing X Factor around the schedules, I remember on the first night they clashed Fame Academy had no opening titles and it started right off the back of the previous show and linked straight to the lottery at the end.
They also spun a ridiculous cock and bull story about how that was the only slot it could possibly go in because it couldn't go any later on Saturday because that was Casualty time, despite the fact Casualty was on its summer break, and it couldn't go on Fridays because they were exclusively for comedy, despite the fact the comedy was just repeats and Friday had been comedy night before the first series and they just shoved it out of the way for it. Absolutely shameless. I don't think that's the kind of thing the Beeb would ever do these days.
Score post_id=66799 time= user_id=1126 Wrote:X Factor was never going to return to the highs it hit in 2010 because once people stop watching a show they rarely return. Plus the highs it reached were so dizzying and unsustainable it was never going to last. They only realised far too late in the day that the trick was just to keep the show steady at a good level. Which like you say was made far more difficult by the amount of boasting they did at the peak. For most of the 2010s X Factor wasn't actually doing that badly. Yes it was declining, but so were most things, but the numbers were still good and the pace of decline wasn't horrendous. But it seemed to live in the shadow of its peak and every time it showed signs of emerging from it, they ruined it by changing things around.
Yeah, X Factor could happily have continued for many years, even if it wasn't pulling in millions and millions of viewers again. You can compare it to The Voice which certainly isn't the national talking point it was a decade ago but is still running, still pulling in a reasonable audience and still with some value for ITV to continue it, and X Factor could have merrily gone on like that. Unfortunately, because they'd expended so much energy saying it was the biggest show in the world, the pressure was on them far more and the press were looking for any kind of decline because it was such good copy.
Brekkie post_id=66823 time= user_id=976 Wrote:Would be interesting to know how many auditioned for Idol and Popstars compared to The X Factor it's peak.
As I say, in the original Popstars they happily admitted that barely anyone turned up to the Belfast auditions. Of course, one of the great moments of that series, which they showed several times, was the rejected hopeful running down the stairs demanding they stop filming her and shouting "Film me any more and you'll hear from my lawyers!" Great fun.
Pop Idol: Birth of a Franchise - DeMarkay - 03-02-2022
I say bring back Fame Academy and Pop Idol. Two really good shows that never got the respect that they deserved.